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Clay on Aircraft

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aslad, May 18, 2017.

  1. Aslad

    Aslad Forum Ensign

    Okay, hear me out on this one. I know many of you are opposed to this, and I see why, but let me just mention a few things.

    • Planes are much slower in NBZ, and much larger targets, than in real life. This makes them incredibly vulnerable to fire.
    • This vulnerability is emphasised by the fact no skill is required. It really is just point and click, as you don't need to bother about leading your target when firing at a plane. I believe that clay aircraft require more skill to neutralise, as you have to be very specific with where you aim - the weaponry. The weapons are weakspots on all vehicles, and this is no different for clay aircraft. You hit the torpedoes and lapis of droppers, and you almost completely remove the threat. Not to mention a lot of players who make clay planes also use slabs, glass, signs etc that can still be destroyed by AA.
    • This would also encourage the use of "heavy AA" - cannons that fire upwards. This is possible to do and quite easy. This adds another layer of immersion and also requires more skill to hit the target with.
    • Just add a rule stating no 100% clay aircraft (aka you MUST have some form of AA-vulnerable material present in a suitable quantity) and no clay boxes.
    • Another point is helicopters. Wool planes are vulnerable enough, as all it takes is a shot to the helm and the entire aircraft has had it. Even if you don't hit the helm, most of the time the aircraft floor will be shot out and the pilot will fall out anyway. It only takes a few seconds to shred a plane completely. Helicopters, which move even slower, are completely useless, as 90% of the time they'll be shot down before even getting close to a target.
    • AA-Gun calibre is the same, roughly, as a light machine gun - around 7.7mm. In real life this would not even come close to annhilating an aircraft as they do in NBZ. Early Spitfire pilots relied on heavy numbers of 7.7mm guns and incendiary ammunition to set fires on enemy aircraft, as the bullets themselves were too small to do serious damage.
    • If you want to make clay aircraft weaker, ban the use of depth charges on them. Allow depth charges on non-clay aircraft, but not on clay ones. This means they can't sit on top of a target and spam 19 bombs on you, and they'll be forced to rely on 2-drop bomb droppers that run the risk of blowing up in your face.
    • I'd imagine, now we have the code, it is possible to change whether clay is invincible or not. I would think, hopefully, it'd just take some finding and value changing, or additional lines with a few changes to names and the like.
    Like I said, I know many of you don't agree that clay aircraft should be allowed, but just give what I've said some thought.

    ~Aslad
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    electrizzi likes this.
  2. gatraf

    gatraf Forum Admiral

    No no no no no
     
  3. Aslad

    Aslad Forum Ensign

    If you're going to say that, at least put some thought into it. Give reasons as to why you think no.
     
  4. BlackHawk

    BlackHawk Banned

    Please yes, and keep them aa-proof. I need a way to grind rp.
     
  5. Profilename1

    Profilename1 Forum Ensign

    I'll prepare a rebuttal.
    • The same thing can be said for ships, speedwise. Ships are admittedly smaller than real life, but planes seem to be able to hit them just fine. Also, with proper flying technique a plane can be nearly invulerable to AA fire from ships.
    • I think the opposite is true. AA does require skill. Unless the plane is incredibly close you have to factor in the velocity of the plane in your machine gunning. Additionally, wool planes require you to have the skill to avoid AA fire, while clay planes require no such skill. Just zoom right on top of the ship and spam some bombs.
    • Heavy AA is still useful. It has a much longer range than regular AA and can one-hit-kill most planes. While a skilled pilot can avoid AA fairly easily, it is very difficult to avoid a well-placed cannon shot.
    • This sounds impossible to enforce.
    • Clay helicopters, on the other hand, are incredibly overpowered. Just sit on top of the ship and drop bombs. Very hard to shoot cannons DIRECTLY up. Maus had a way but it was pretty buggy last I tried.
    • How, exactly, did you come to the conclusion that NBZ guns where 7.7mm? Even so, the first point established that NBZ didn't have bleeding edge realism. Why should this be different? Besides, you're ignoring that NBZ AA would also have incendiary rounds
    • Depth charges also blow up in your face. The big difference is ammo. I can't help but feel that you say this because you like using clay planes with bomb droppers and want everyone else to do the same:p.
    • True, but it could also be nearly impossible. Even if it was possible, clay would have to be weakened dramatically. 3 hits to destroy at most. I suspect, however, that the config options on blocks are either AA-able or non-AA-able.
    In conclusion, wool planes are fine. If clay planes come back we'll go back to the skrubby era where ships were nearly useless and continuously at the mercy of planes. If you can't fly a wool plane without getting instantly downed, then either get good or stick to ships and subs.

    ~Profilename1
     
  6. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk Guest

    Aslad, all of your points are very valid. However, I tend to agree with @Profilename1 on most of your arguments. Aircraft, while admittedly are smaller than ships and therefore either to sink, are therefore also smaller and harder to hit, faster, and more maneuverable. AA-Guns do tend to be inaccurate at a certain range, effectively allowing aircraft to outrun them and overfly it. The reasoning behind no clay on aircraft is an attempt to destroy the old meta of planes > everything, and whilst it may take a bit of time to come up with a more agreed upon option, it is much better than banning all hangar plots all together because they are "Overpowered".

    As for helicopters being "even worse than aircraft without clay", I tend to disagree. Helicopters move in all directions - diagonal, up, down, left and right. They can effectively outrun ships (albeit at a much slower pace than aircraft) and float motionless above them dropping bombs with extreme accuracy. Our solution for this was to disallow depth charges on helicopters, and the current administration feels that these changes are the best way to implement the needed balance changes for the time being.
     
  7. Kaiser CreeperHate

    Kaiser CreeperHate Forum R. Admiral

    I will have to agree to the no-clay side of the argument, Profilename's points are well made and are completely rational and true.
     
  8. Aslad

    Aslad Forum Ensign

    I've replied in blue :)
    • The same thing can be said for ships, speedwise. Ships are admittedly smaller than real life, but planes seem to be able to hit them just fine. Also, with proper flying technique a plane can be nearly invulerable to AA fire from ships.
      I wouldn't call flying to space above AA-Gun range a proper flying technique. Also that technique is completely invalid to people like me who have less than top of the range PCs and suffer from extremely slow render refresh rates. Same goes for if you're flying lower and just turning. My screen just becomes filled with almost holographic versions of a plane, and I have no idea where to shoot because I don't know where the real one is.
    • I think the opposite is true. AA does require skill. Unless the plane is incredibly close you have to factor in the velocity of the plane in your machine gunning. Additionally, wool planes require you to have the skill to avoid AA fire, while clay planes require no such skill. Just zoom right on top of the ship and spam some bombs.
      Again, I would not call flying to space a skill in avoiding AA fire. As I mentioned previously, this tactic is not possible for people with bad render if they wish to actually land a hit on a ship.
    • Heavy AA is still useful. It has a much longer range than regular AA and can one-hit-kill most planes. While a skilled pilot can avoid AA fairly easily, it is very difficult to avoid a well-placed cannon shot.
      It's the opposite though. AA-Guns are far easier to aim and have a far better level of traverse. Cannon AA is much more limiting. It relies on the aircraft being almost directly above or in a position to which the TNT can fly. This means it takes a whole lot more skill, especially with the slower fire rate and speed of the 'shells', to land a hit with them. Careful timing of the fuses is also required.
      It isn't impossible, but either way it would still reduce the amount of them present. Not everyone is going to blatantly ignore the rules, although some often do.
    • Clay helicopters, on the other hand, are incredibly overpowered. Just sit on top of the ship and drop bombs. Very hard to shoot cannons DIRECTLY up. Maus had a way but it was pretty buggy last I tried.
      This is why I'm saying you have to aim for the weaponry. You hit the lapis or the wool of torpedoes and you eliminate the threat. Even cannons are not too difficult to deal with as you just aim for the gunner. Also, when I have mentioned Heavy AA previously, I'm talking exactly about directly upwards-shooting cannons. Not sure what you thought I meant. I designed one years ago that, to the best of my knowledge, still works. I can test later but it was so effective I had an AA-Tank with a rotating setup of it. Also, clay is extremely weak to explosions, so even an indirect hit with cannon fire will do serious damage.
    • How, exactly, did you come to the conclusion that NBZ guns where 7.7mm? Even so, the first point established that NBZ didn't have bleeding edge realism. Why should this be different? Besides, you're ignoring that NBZ AA would also have incendiary rounds
      I said roughly. Either way, AA-Guns are machine gun rounds, not heavy flak. They inflict way too much damage to wool planes than they would in real life. Yes, I know NBZ isn't realistic, I've made that point myself many times over the years. But this, I feel, is just too unrealistic. Machine gun calibre rounds would not shred an aircraft to pieces within a few seconds of fire. It just wouldn't happen on most aircraft. Also you missed my point about the incendiaries. I was saying that the low damage output of 7.7mm rounds forced pilots to use incendiary rounds - I was emphasising that AA-Guns are way too powerful against wool aircraft when compared to their real life counterparts.
      Depth charges also blow up in your face. The big difference is ammo. I can't help but feel that you say this because you like using clay planes with bomb droppers and want everyone else to do the same:p
      I think you missed my point again. Bomb droppers can only drop two bombs each. Depth charges can drop a huge amount more (something in the region of 19 if I remember correctly). This means you can just spam a ton of them, whereas you can't do that with bomb droppers. Yes, I like using clay planes, but the reason I have always used bomb droppers is because I believe in fairness and knew something like my Titan bomber (which had 18 bomb droppers) would have been insanely overpowered with depth charges equipped. It was inevitable one or more of the droppers would blow up in my face, and indeed it happened almost every combat sortie I flew with it. But, at maximum, I'd be able to drop 36 bombs - rarely actually achieved, but fairly realistic for a real life bomber. With depth charges, I'd be able to drop 342 bombs at maximum. That would be unbelievably powerful, and it's why I never did it. This is why I'm saying ban depth charges on clay aircraft. That way they have a far more limited combat load and it's just another way to reduce their supposed overpoweredness.
    • True, but it could also be nearly impossible. Even if it was possible, clay would have to be weakened dramatically. 3 hits to destroy at most. I suspect, however, that the config options on blocks are either AA-able or non-AA-able.
    Good point, but we'll have to wait and see I suppose :p


    In conclusion, wool planes are fine. If clay planes come back we'll go back to the skrubby era where ships were nearly useless and continuously at the mercy of planes. If you can't fly a wool plane without getting instantly downed, then either get good or stick to ships and subs.
    It's not a case of "getting good" when I can't fly to space out of AA-Gun range and still hit my target. My render is too bad for that. And I've suggested ways we can nerf clay aircraft. And hell, the entire reason battleships were phased out is because they were so vulnerable to aircraft. It's realistic :p
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    electrizzi likes this.
  9. Aslad

    Aslad Forum Ensign

    Unless the speed of helicopters has been dramatically increased in the past few months, they were never faster than most ships that had engines above Gasoline 2. They could barely keep up, and were most definitely outrun (albeit slowly) by nuclear powered vessels. Also, yes, they move in all directions, but they do so very slow speeds.
     
  10. Profilename1

    Profilename1 Forum Ensign

    This is going to get bulky if I reply to every point like last time, so I'll address this last part only.
    First, have you looked into getting optifine? I don't use it (doesn't make much difference for me) but I hear that it can do wonders for slow computers. If you have optifine and still have this problem, have you considered getting a minimap? Many players use them for navigating docks, and they should work the same regardless of render. Alternatively, you could target based on the in game radar, although I will admit that you won't get 100% accuracy with it.

    As for battleships being fased out, it ought to be noted that there hasn't been a significant naval battle since World War 2. It's hard to say how a modern naval battle would go. Would cruise missles be used? Tactical nuclear weapons? Railguns? Would aircraft even be useful in a modern naval war? I have no idea. I think that in a modern naval battle the sides would go in like commanders in World War 1 commanders still using Napoleonic tactics. A new strategy would emerge, but a lot of steel would sink first.
     
  11. gatraf

    gatraf Forum Admiral

    I think its actually really balanced and that we should keep it dat way
     
  12. Aslad

    Aslad Forum Ensign

    Yes, I had Optifine previously but it just made my laptop bluescreen consistently with very little improvement to fps or render. No idea why. Signage radar is nowhere near accurate enough for more than getting you close to your target. Minimaps I'll need to look into.

    And you're forgetting the Falklands war. Every single Royal Navy ship that was sunk during the conflict was sunk by Argentine aircraft. Almost every single damaged ship, with the exception of HMS Glamorgan (hit by a land-based Exocet missile) was hit by aircraft. So yes, aircraft are very much useful in modern war.
     
  13. Profilename1

    Profilename1 Forum Ensign

    The Falkland War wasn't a significant naval conflict (didn't even last a year) and I wouldn't call Argentina a major naval power. I was just speculating about future naval battles in general (like a US vs China scenario). I haven't used minimap, but I've heard from some players that they are very effective.
     
  14. MrZuperTaco

    MrZuperTaco Forum Cmdr.

    For clay to be legal in my opinion, the strength it has against AA-Guns needs to be lowered significantly. Not to the same durability as wool, but a bit stronger. Right now clay is too durable against AA-Guns.
     
  15. Aslad

    Aslad Forum Ensign

    To be fair, Argentina at the time were equipped with a decent navy (ish). They actually had some British-built destroyers of the same class that they were facing. It was a significant naval conflict btw.
     
  16. Wrangler

    Wrangler Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Heavy AA Guns are not easy thing to do. You have to adjust the power and the fuse to make sure they detonate.

    AA-Guns do knockout plane eventually, its just pretty darn hard. I've shot down people using aa-guns alone when they were all clay.
    People should be grateful we have planes again. Thou i still they'll overwhelm a normal ship with one guy on it if their not careful.

    Wafflez's B2 schooled number of ships before going down for example. Wasted my money i can't get back too which is another thing. There no free Ship1s now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  17. Nuclear_Wafflez

    Nuclear_Wafflez Forum Lt. JG

    Clay should be allowed.. even though this is an old post
     
  18. VIEF_Chokolatecake

    VIEF_Chokolatecake Forum Lt. Cmdr.

    Dude, its spelled "salad" stupid
     

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